worst nightmare...yes, there are a very small rare number of people who are pronounced DEAD in hospital who are NOT dead, who actually feel pain DURING surgery
My wife, a Registered Nursed, warned me years ago TO REMOVE MY DONOR CONSENT before I was in any kind of accident...she said they would take my organs, whether or not I could survive whatever crisis put me at risk of having my organs removed. She witnessed an older lady having her eyeballs removed, for transplantation, while she was still alive. Quite disturbing it is to learn that organs MUST be harvested while the donor is alive. I have since learned that dead organs cannot be successfully transplanted...again....they must, by definition be harvested from a living person. Yea...some doctors pronounce people "brain dead"...and proceed to fill an order for some parts. Parts originating from "abortions" are also being sold, I am told. These sicko miscreants cannot be trusted. My wife also shocked a doctor, who during a surgical procedure, and was asked a question by her....while she was supposed to be unconscious....he almost had a heart attack...and ordered the anesthetist to add more drugs to knock her out properly....Trust? No way. we've seen too much to trust them.
this that you describe is disturbing...the issue is definitive death...and this is a real issue...there are some instances when the heart is deemed to have stopped complete yet beats every 30 minutes...even longer and shallow...its akin to a high skilled deep diver, they can train their systems to require near nil oxygen, far less breaths...(I am not sure I am explaining it properly) but the key is for the heart to beat sparsely...meaning they need very little oxygen and what they take in they use efficiently...
CatGirl17, the data base has to be changed, likely in person, and they will not like it when you ask. Go to DMV in person, and request confirmation that you are a donor....then asked to be removed, and to be provided proof that the data base was changed. Removing the sticker from your license will not be sufficient, I am told. The reason is that the data base is shared, and is what a hospital or clinic will refer to if you show up unconscious at their facility.
This is way more common than most people realize. Do NOT sign up to be an organ donor. If you already have, do what it takes to reverse it. The problem arises out of a looser definition of “brain dead” that doctors use that is often at odds with state law but they never get prosecuted because, guess what, the crime victim is well and truly dead after the organs are harvested and the next of kin have no idea what happened. Often the victim is given a paralytic to keep him still but NO ANESTHESIA. Truly terrifying. I’ll have nothing to do with this.
I find this topic very interesting yet disturbing...there are examples of people being put under for surgery but still capable of feeling all pain yet cannot move...and tears are seen coming down their face...cant move...I do not know what I would do if it were me...maybe I may die due to the trauma
Negligence. They wanted the organs so badly they didn't care enough to fully confirm he was dead, as long as they could get his organs before he could come back to life. Horror story.
Death can be a extremely difficult to diagnose, which is why, in days of old, loved ones and relatives would sit by the graves for several days and nights, listening for the tinkling of a bell that was suspended on a hook above the grave with a string attached through a hole in the casket. Yes! There is a patent for this invention! If the bell jangled, the watcher would call for help and the living person in the coffin would be dug up immediately.
Humans can remain apparently dead for up to several days. I don’t know about other animals. I DO know, however, that animals in vivisection labs not infrequently either wake up, or suffer with inadequate anesthesia, while white coats perform gruesome surgeries and experiments on them. Not dissimilarly, chickens, turkeys and pigs -animals who are all subjected to being dunked head first into scalding water baths to loosen their skin just after they’re supposedly killed - are known to sometimes not die before being dunked. The slaughterhouse workers report them screaming and writhing as the merciless conveyor belt they’re dangling from dips them down and into the scalding tank.
We have no idea why some people pass immediately, and others return to their apparently lifeless bodies after several days. Those who return seem to sometimes have near death experiences; others don’t. It’s still all quite the mystery. We know even less about what our non-human kin experience, although there’s no reason to suspect that it’s profoundly different. I once saw a video taken along a quiet roadside one night, by a young woman who saw a deer stumbling along the road’s shoulder. Thinking quickly, she stopped her car and whipped out her cell phone just in time to capture the last few moments of the deer’s life, at the end of which it suddenly collapsed. Within a few seconds a distinctive white mist rose directly from the deer’s body and floated away for about five seconds before dissipating. I found this to be a profound and touching moment, and evidence that, indeed, spirit is a very real thing and possessed in some form or degree by every living being.
I will neither donate not accept another person’s organs, in part because of the ethics involved in determining whether somebody else is actually through using them! Or the possibility of deliberately induced death, as, for example, the members of Falun Gong murdered by Chinese authorities and doctors to supply the booming global organ transplant trade. I shy away also because coming to enlightened, peaceful acceptance of my own mortality is one of the great challenges of my life, IMO. There is also the potential for the mixing of spirits, and the fact of horrific animal suffering to make organ transplantation possible. I won’t criticize anyone else, but working towards mastery of my own fears and impulses around death by drawing the line at where nature, if left to her own devices, would say “NO”, is one way in which I strive to help make the world a more peaceful and uplifting place. I hope this offers some food for thought.
one of the best posts I have read...I know there is a device that is demanded now that can place a probe into the blood system to detect even the faintest heart beat...for even when heart stops at times it will beat very very shallow cant be detected...so some systems use all types of measures to be definitive.
I don’t know, but that’s an interesting thought! What I meant was more along the lines that some people notice that they pick up traits of the donor after receiving an organ. Like someone who was never musical suddenly starts playing the piano, or someone who never liked vegetables suddenly begins to crave vegetarian food. They begin to act or feel like donor, even if they never met or knew anything about the donor.
This can’t possibly be the result of biochemical or mechanical processes as we currently understand them. The only potential explanation we have at this time is that we have a mysterious vital energy or connection to another dimension - what we call our soul - and aspects of that soul are stored in our organs. These aspects develop and express themselves independently of our brain function, and can continue on for some time after the death of the brain or while existing within another body.
Interestingly, the ancient Egyptians and some other cultures believed that each of the organs in the body ruled over some aspect of personalities and general constitution. During mummification, the Egyptians removed each vital organ except the brain, which was considered relatively unimportant, and embalmed it separately in a canonic jar caped with a lid in the shape of the god who ruled over that organ and its power of influence over the soul.
So what happens when some of the soul energy from one body begins to live inside, and exercise power over, another body? When the donor’s soul reincarnate with “something missing”, and does that influence their personality or capabilities forever after? Does the recipient reincarnate with “something extra” which causes inherent clashes and stresses forever after? If so, can these conditions be rectified by proper energy therapies? I know that skilled Reiki therapists can perform soul retrievals for patients who either incarnated without being in possession of their souls at the time, or who separated from them during trauma on this earthly plane, so could they perform “organ-based” partial soul retrievals or releases to correct these energy imbalances? If so, what would happen to the person who has the non-indigenous energy removed?
There are very interesting questions, IMO. The evidence suggests to me that when a person distinctly changes as a result of an organ transplant, their energy field has been altered and therefore our organs must generate some sort of organ-specific energy wanes that we as yet don’t understand. If “we” are beings of pure energy manifesting briefly on this plane, then we don’t know whether foreign energy influences introduced to our bodies during our time here, dissipate after our death.
I’m nervous about the possibility of having to carry around someone else’s energy, possibly forever, especially if it conflicts with my own native energy imprint. I think this could happen numerous ways, but hosting someone else’s organs in my body and actually transforming them, at the biological level, into “me” over time, while they simultaneously transmute “me” into “them” at the metaphysical level, is probably the most profound and potentially permanent way that I can think of. I have no idea whether what I’m thinking of could be true, but it seems logical and a good fit with the available evidence that I’m aware of. Therefore, that’s what I’m going to take as a guideline to live with until I find a more compelling evidence-based argument.
Incompetence why don't they test properly instead of making rushed declarations. It would be a good idea to remove that donor designation just in case you are still alive, so you don't get parted out while alive. It has been alleged the soldiers in the Ukraine were parted out while alive and sold on the market.
In reference to pigs being scalded while still alive, this need never happen. In my youth, my uncle taught me the right way to humanely kill a pig. I would hold the knife, being too young to do the neck cut but he would put some corn on the lawn and the target would put its head down to eat it. Uncle would use a .22 mushroom low velocity rifle and shoot the pig always in the brain from a few feet which would kill it outright. He would then lay down the rifle and I would hand him the knife and he would do the cut and immediately we would rig the pig and hang it in the air from a front end loader until the blood was drained, head down. Done correctly the pig or steer would not thrash, or run around or suffer. The brain shot always left it on the ground graveyard dead. No thrashing. No struggling. Just still. Ditto for steers.
He only once allowed some moslems to kill lambs as they loved mutton. But once was all it happened because they refused to let us do the head shot. The whole thing was a ceremony. The lamb would be placed on a plywood sheet, and the appointed male in the family would sit on the lamb, lean forward and mutter a prayer and then cut the throat. Then it was left to suffer and die from hemorrhage. Uncle had already sold the lambs to them but that was the last time he sold anything to a moslem as it was cruel, I was told it was the moslem religious belief to kill that way which I considered cruel and barbaric. Halal they call it and it should be outlawed.
As to the pig, it was left hanging from the loader for several minutes until there was no doubt it was dead. It was then placed in a boiling tank of water and we never saw any signs of one thrashing or squealing. Chickens were humanely killed by having a sharp pointed pocket knife inserted into the roof of the mouth while they were drowsy and slept, and just relaxed and went limp. Same process with steers only we did not use scalding water, we merely skinned it.
I say there is a right way, a wrong way and an American way to humanely kill animals for food and the methodology I was taught was perfect with no errors or suffering. Halal is barbaric, and there is no advantage to just cutting the throat of an animal and letting it suffer. The same process of halal I believe to be used on chickens or any animals. Scriptures are opposed to no act of cruelty.
I warn you that while the process of killing animals humanely does desensitize the "killer" it can be the development of a killer by rote. Does not the spectre and reality of many moslem families whose fathers train their boys to perform halal killing alarm anyone? You have a veritable army of desensitized killers who possess the capacity to cut the throats and/or stab humans too. Why do the pigs slobber over doing illegal raids to seize firearms from those with no criminal records who have been the targets of delusional bureauCRAPS for over two decades but ignore the huge increase in stabbings? Is it fine for these politically correct maroons in blue uniforms to ignore this situation? Of course it is. Dontcha just know that political correctness shields and protects violent offenders with its LIEberal catch and release program? Why is it legal for a Sikh to carry a dagger but anyone else doing so would be under suspicion? But I digress again.
The process is horrific at first but one soon becomes desensitized to it. I recall at the first that I thought it would be easier to kill a human, specifically a rapist or murderer who had committed horrific crimes than I could kill an innocent animal whose only sin was to be delicious. Most liberal white soy boys in cities cannot even tie their shoe laces let alone have the ability to protect their women and children.
The corrupt leftist CYSTem and its stooges can make like the birds and flock off. It is out to lunch and filled with damned fools with less sense than God gave a billygoat.
Yes. Note there is always three ways of thinking and three ways of doing things. The right way, the wrong way, and the American or Canadian, or British etc way.
Note that most do and think either the wrong way or the "American, Canadian, etc way.
I was taught from boyhood the Truth that scriptures embodied ONLY the right way and since they mandate humaneness to animals that was and is the only way to "harvest" them for food. That is the only right way. The lights need to be put out immediately and this is a necessity to prevent pain and suffering.
Thus alternate ways aside from the quick, painless way are evil, and cruel. Most of the fast food chickens are also killed here in Canuckistan by the halal way that is cruel and contrary to the Word of God. I do not patronize fast food chicken outlets anymore. I was taught the right way was to kill chickens when they are asleep and the sharp point of a knife through the roof of the mouth when they are asleep results in instant death. I have never seen or known of any chicken to suffer or flap its wings or become agitated. They do not struggle when handled at rest, and immediately and peacefully relax/slump when the point of the knife enters the brain.
Just because certain beliefs are religious beliefs does not mean they are the ordained proper way. There is only One true God and one true Way to salvation and that is by and through Jesus Christ. Scriptures counsel merciful and painless harvesting of His creations. Any other way is anathema to God and violates His ordained Word.
My wife, a Registered Nursed, warned me years ago TO REMOVE MY DONOR CONSENT before I was in any kind of accident...she said they would take my organs, whether or not I could survive whatever crisis put me at risk of having my organs removed. She witnessed an older lady having her eyeballs removed, for transplantation, while she was still alive. Quite disturbing it is to learn that organs MUST be harvested while the donor is alive. I have since learned that dead organs cannot be successfully transplanted...again....they must, by definition be harvested from a living person. Yea...some doctors pronounce people "brain dead"...and proceed to fill an order for some parts. Parts originating from "abortions" are also being sold, I am told. These sicko miscreants cannot be trusted. My wife also shocked a doctor, who during a surgical procedure, and was asked a question by her....while she was supposed to be unconscious....he almost had a heart attack...and ordered the anesthetist to add more drugs to knock her out properly....Trust? No way. we've seen too much to trust them.
this that you describe is disturbing...the issue is definitive death...and this is a real issue...there are some instances when the heart is deemed to have stopped complete yet beats every 30 minutes...even longer and shallow...its akin to a high skilled deep diver, they can train their systems to require near nil oxygen, far less breaths...(I am not sure I am explaining it properly) but the key is for the heart to beat sparsely...meaning they need very little oxygen and what they take in they use efficiently...
so you may be confused that they are dead
I agree with you
Agree 100% and I also told everyone I love to take that off their license!
How do we revoke it? I remember signing up years ago through the California DMV. I had a pink sticker on my license. Is removing the sticker enough?
I am not sure...
CatGirl17, the data base has to be changed, likely in person, and they will not like it when you ask. Go to DMV in person, and request confirmation that you are a donor....then asked to be removed, and to be provided proof that the data base was changed. Removing the sticker from your license will not be sufficient, I am told. The reason is that the data base is shared, and is what a hospital or clinic will refer to if you show up unconscious at their facility.
This is way more common than most people realize. Do NOT sign up to be an organ donor. If you already have, do what it takes to reverse it. The problem arises out of a looser definition of “brain dead” that doctors use that is often at odds with state law but they never get prosecuted because, guess what, the crime victim is well and truly dead after the organs are harvested and the next of kin have no idea what happened. Often the victim is given a paralytic to keep him still but NO ANESTHESIA. Truly terrifying. I’ll have nothing to do with this.
I have heard this too, must be clinically alive to harvest and paralytics...issue is some fell the pain for they are alive
I think there should be a system where you must be anesthesia and given pain killers in case you are not dead
I too agree more common than we realize
These are the butchers, err doctors you trust?
That's the problem, ALL trust is GONE.
And that's a problem how?
not a problem, it should be that way
I find this topic very interesting yet disturbing...there are examples of people being put under for surgery but still capable of feeling all pain yet cannot move...and tears are seen coming down their face...cant move...I do not know what I would do if it were me...maybe I may die due to the trauma
Negligence. They wanted the organs so badly they didn't care enough to fully confirm he was dead, as long as they could get his organs before he could come back to life. Horror story.
much horror and it happens lots...there is even instances when person is in the morgue yet found alive.
Death can be a extremely difficult to diagnose, which is why, in days of old, loved ones and relatives would sit by the graves for several days and nights, listening for the tinkling of a bell that was suspended on a hook above the grave with a string attached through a hole in the casket. Yes! There is a patent for this invention! If the bell jangled, the watcher would call for help and the living person in the coffin would be dug up immediately.
Humans can remain apparently dead for up to several days. I don’t know about other animals. I DO know, however, that animals in vivisection labs not infrequently either wake up, or suffer with inadequate anesthesia, while white coats perform gruesome surgeries and experiments on them. Not dissimilarly, chickens, turkeys and pigs -animals who are all subjected to being dunked head first into scalding water baths to loosen their skin just after they’re supposedly killed - are known to sometimes not die before being dunked. The slaughterhouse workers report them screaming and writhing as the merciless conveyor belt they’re dangling from dips them down and into the scalding tank.
We have no idea why some people pass immediately, and others return to their apparently lifeless bodies after several days. Those who return seem to sometimes have near death experiences; others don’t. It’s still all quite the mystery. We know even less about what our non-human kin experience, although there’s no reason to suspect that it’s profoundly different. I once saw a video taken along a quiet roadside one night, by a young woman who saw a deer stumbling along the road’s shoulder. Thinking quickly, she stopped her car and whipped out her cell phone just in time to capture the last few moments of the deer’s life, at the end of which it suddenly collapsed. Within a few seconds a distinctive white mist rose directly from the deer’s body and floated away for about five seconds before dissipating. I found this to be a profound and touching moment, and evidence that, indeed, spirit is a very real thing and possessed in some form or degree by every living being.
I will neither donate not accept another person’s organs, in part because of the ethics involved in determining whether somebody else is actually through using them! Or the possibility of deliberately induced death, as, for example, the members of Falun Gong murdered by Chinese authorities and doctors to supply the booming global organ transplant trade. I shy away also because coming to enlightened, peaceful acceptance of my own mortality is one of the great challenges of my life, IMO. There is also the potential for the mixing of spirits, and the fact of horrific animal suffering to make organ transplantation possible. I won’t criticize anyone else, but working towards mastery of my own fears and impulses around death by drawing the line at where nature, if left to her own devices, would say “NO”, is one way in which I strive to help make the world a more peaceful and uplifting place. I hope this offers some food for thought.
one of the best posts I have read...I know there is a device that is demanded now that can place a probe into the blood system to detect even the faintest heart beat...for even when heart stops at times it will beat very very shallow cant be detected...so some systems use all types of measures to be definitive.
I’d like to hear what you mean by “mixing of spirits”. Could a donated organ trap that person’s soul in the earth plane - or in the recipient’s body?
very good question Cat
I don’t know, but that’s an interesting thought! What I meant was more along the lines that some people notice that they pick up traits of the donor after receiving an organ. Like someone who was never musical suddenly starts playing the piano, or someone who never liked vegetables suddenly begins to crave vegetarian food. They begin to act or feel like donor, even if they never met or knew anything about the donor.
This can’t possibly be the result of biochemical or mechanical processes as we currently understand them. The only potential explanation we have at this time is that we have a mysterious vital energy or connection to another dimension - what we call our soul - and aspects of that soul are stored in our organs. These aspects develop and express themselves independently of our brain function, and can continue on for some time after the death of the brain or while existing within another body.
Interestingly, the ancient Egyptians and some other cultures believed that each of the organs in the body ruled over some aspect of personalities and general constitution. During mummification, the Egyptians removed each vital organ except the brain, which was considered relatively unimportant, and embalmed it separately in a canonic jar caped with a lid in the shape of the god who ruled over that organ and its power of influence over the soul.
So what happens when some of the soul energy from one body begins to live inside, and exercise power over, another body? When the donor’s soul reincarnate with “something missing”, and does that influence their personality or capabilities forever after? Does the recipient reincarnate with “something extra” which causes inherent clashes and stresses forever after? If so, can these conditions be rectified by proper energy therapies? I know that skilled Reiki therapists can perform soul retrievals for patients who either incarnated without being in possession of their souls at the time, or who separated from them during trauma on this earthly plane, so could they perform “organ-based” partial soul retrievals or releases to correct these energy imbalances? If so, what would happen to the person who has the non-indigenous energy removed?
There are very interesting questions, IMO. The evidence suggests to me that when a person distinctly changes as a result of an organ transplant, their energy field has been altered and therefore our organs must generate some sort of organ-specific energy wanes that we as yet don’t understand. If “we” are beings of pure energy manifesting briefly on this plane, then we don’t know whether foreign energy influences introduced to our bodies during our time here, dissipate after our death.
I’m nervous about the possibility of having to carry around someone else’s energy, possibly forever, especially if it conflicts with my own native energy imprint. I think this could happen numerous ways, but hosting someone else’s organs in my body and actually transforming them, at the biological level, into “me” over time, while they simultaneously transmute “me” into “them” at the metaphysical level, is probably the most profound and potentially permanent way that I can think of. I have no idea whether what I’m thinking of could be true, but it seems logical and a good fit with the available evidence that I’m aware of. Therefore, that’s what I’m going to take as a guideline to live with until I find a more compelling evidence-based argument.
Incompetence why don't they test properly instead of making rushed declarations. It would be a good idea to remove that donor designation just in case you are still alive, so you don't get parted out while alive. It has been alleged the soldiers in the Ukraine were parted out while alive and sold on the market.
I could believe that
People's Republic of America.
I know a lot of dead heads whose hearts are still beating...
Smart ass gal. I love it.
In reference to pigs being scalded while still alive, this need never happen. In my youth, my uncle taught me the right way to humanely kill a pig. I would hold the knife, being too young to do the neck cut but he would put some corn on the lawn and the target would put its head down to eat it. Uncle would use a .22 mushroom low velocity rifle and shoot the pig always in the brain from a few feet which would kill it outright. He would then lay down the rifle and I would hand him the knife and he would do the cut and immediately we would rig the pig and hang it in the air from a front end loader until the blood was drained, head down. Done correctly the pig or steer would not thrash, or run around or suffer. The brain shot always left it on the ground graveyard dead. No thrashing. No struggling. Just still. Ditto for steers.
He only once allowed some moslems to kill lambs as they loved mutton. But once was all it happened because they refused to let us do the head shot. The whole thing was a ceremony. The lamb would be placed on a plywood sheet, and the appointed male in the family would sit on the lamb, lean forward and mutter a prayer and then cut the throat. Then it was left to suffer and die from hemorrhage. Uncle had already sold the lambs to them but that was the last time he sold anything to a moslem as it was cruel, I was told it was the moslem religious belief to kill that way which I considered cruel and barbaric. Halal they call it and it should be outlawed.
As to the pig, it was left hanging from the loader for several minutes until there was no doubt it was dead. It was then placed in a boiling tank of water and we never saw any signs of one thrashing or squealing. Chickens were humanely killed by having a sharp pointed pocket knife inserted into the roof of the mouth while they were drowsy and slept, and just relaxed and went limp. Same process with steers only we did not use scalding water, we merely skinned it.
I say there is a right way, a wrong way and an American way to humanely kill animals for food and the methodology I was taught was perfect with no errors or suffering. Halal is barbaric, and there is no advantage to just cutting the throat of an animal and letting it suffer. The same process of halal I believe to be used on chickens or any animals. Scriptures are opposed to no act of cruelty.
I warn you that while the process of killing animals humanely does desensitize the "killer" it can be the development of a killer by rote. Does not the spectre and reality of many moslem families whose fathers train their boys to perform halal killing alarm anyone? You have a veritable army of desensitized killers who possess the capacity to cut the throats and/or stab humans too. Why do the pigs slobber over doing illegal raids to seize firearms from those with no criminal records who have been the targets of delusional bureauCRAPS for over two decades but ignore the huge increase in stabbings? Is it fine for these politically correct maroons in blue uniforms to ignore this situation? Of course it is. Dontcha just know that political correctness shields and protects violent offenders with its LIEberal catch and release program? Why is it legal for a Sikh to carry a dagger but anyone else doing so would be under suspicion? But I digress again.
The process is horrific at first but one soon becomes desensitized to it. I recall at the first that I thought it would be easier to kill a human, specifically a rapist or murderer who had committed horrific crimes than I could kill an innocent animal whose only sin was to be delicious. Most liberal white soy boys in cities cannot even tie their shoe laces let alone have the ability to protect their women and children.
The corrupt leftist CYSTem and its stooges can make like the birds and flock off. It is out to lunch and filled with damned fools with less sense than God gave a billygoat.
I need to read your post several times...so good yet disturbing. how some do the killing, ritual yes but the animals suffer.
Yes. Note there is always three ways of thinking and three ways of doing things. The right way, the wrong way, and the American or Canadian, or British etc way.
Note that most do and think either the wrong way or the "American, Canadian, etc way.
I was taught from boyhood the Truth that scriptures embodied ONLY the right way and since they mandate humaneness to animals that was and is the only way to "harvest" them for food. That is the only right way. The lights need to be put out immediately and this is a necessity to prevent pain and suffering.
Thus alternate ways aside from the quick, painless way are evil, and cruel. Most of the fast food chickens are also killed here in Canuckistan by the halal way that is cruel and contrary to the Word of God. I do not patronize fast food chicken outlets anymore. I was taught the right way was to kill chickens when they are asleep and the sharp point of a knife through the roof of the mouth when they are asleep results in instant death. I have never seen or known of any chicken to suffer or flap its wings or become agitated. They do not struggle when handled at rest, and immediately and peacefully relax/slump when the point of the knife enters the brain.
Just because certain beliefs are religious beliefs does not mean they are the ordained proper way. There is only One true God and one true Way to salvation and that is by and through Jesus Christ. Scriptures counsel merciful and painless harvesting of His creations. Any other way is anathema to God and violates His ordained Word.
Seem to remember a Stephen King novella, where a guy was alive for his autopsy. Think he got saved by a hard on.